stavekoff: (Default)
[personal profile] stavekoff
Enter your cut contents here.
After the fight between Kira and Athrun on that island, Kira is actually dead. The Kira we see from that point on is a clone of the original, manipulated by Lacus Clyne to be her soldier.
My supporting evidence is that cloning is a thing in CE, Lacus is extremely manipulative and evil, and Kira's personality gets way more extreme from that point on. Also it's been suggested to me that Waltfeld is also a clone, because why the fuck would he be working for Lacus at all if he was still alive.

 

Thoughts?

Date: 2017-06-07 02:33 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Jota)
From: [personal profile] taichara
We know that Kira didn't get killed on the island, because he's found and rescued by Lowe Gear in Gundam SEED Astray, which was written when the Astray series was filling in SEED gaps and not spinning off into its own stories so much.

Waltfeld's alliance is not that strange when you consider how much the entire narrative pushes the delusion that somehow Lacus Will Bring Peace; it's similar to the way every member of the cast insists Relena Darlian is perfect and a pacifist when there's zero evidence of her competency on-screen and ample evidence of the contrary.

Also I'm disappointed you didn't pick the obvious CE universe choice for being a clone/Carbon Human.

Date: 2017-06-07 02:39 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Close Your Eyes)
From: [personal profile] taichara
It's no less unbelievable than Kira surviving atmospheric re-entry with nothing more than a fever and 'well Coordinators are just so amazing'.

The obvious choice: Mwu/Neo.

Date: 2017-06-07 02:53 pm (UTC)
taichara: (apple)
From: [personal profile] taichara
It's not Coordinators who chose to pick up straight cloning, it's the Naturals/OMNI/Earth-based whackjobs/Librarian. The PLANTs focus on gengineering but if they actually used cloning they wouldn't have their population problem, just for starters.

Tagging in someone else though, who pokes at that even more than I do --

Date: 2017-06-07 03:01 pm (UTC)
kalloway: (GS Captain Coffee - 'This!')
From: [personal profile] kalloway
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, OMNI/etc. has been fucking around with obedience-based gengineering for decades by the timeframe of SEED (I still think Kira is a masterwork of this), because their first idea to 'battle Coordinators!' was with other Coordinators who were under their control. Except that didn't really work, so they moved on to cloning and to the best of my knowledge, the Socius-series clones are relatively stable, physically. What's been done to the minds of a few of them is... unfortunate but that's OMNI for you.

The Biological-CPUs/Druggies from SEED are the ~third wave of OMNI super-soldier projects (because they just couldn't with their homemeade Coordinators anymore), and Destiny's Extendeds are the fourth. Though by the time of the Extendeds, it's mostly science for the horror of science because there are tons of competent Natural pilots and mobile suites with operating systems programmed for them.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:09 pm (UTC)
taichara: (abandon all hope)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Mendel, dude. Bloody Mendel and all the fuxxored shite that went on in that colony. Oi.

I mean being fair, the Socius-series are cloned Coordinators -- but still clones, and they did knock that one very big bug that was in the original out, so points to the Mendel staff? (Kind of?)

You know, a lot of people are probably very lucky that OMNI/Phantom Pain/the Mendel staff in general never seem to have noticed the interesting~ bits in La Flaga's genetic code. An army of cloned Newtypes? Ahahahahahahahahaa *sobs*

Date: 2017-06-07 03:18 pm (UTC)
kalloway: (GS Kira/Cagalli)
From: [personal profile] kalloway
Yeah, pretty much. Like any of the critters before Canard that weren't so lucky...

This is very true, and maaaybe it's that little bit that led to the stability? After all, they knew what went wrong with the earlier attempt(s?)...

Okay, now I sort of want to play with that. Though yes, it is a good thing.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:20 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Surya)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Yuuuup.

Oh, to find out how Veia got himself into ZAFT. (do I get to blame Le Creuset? I want to blame Le Creuset and his hooks into Zala and Clyne.)

Well, there's also that game AU with Rau II --

Date: 2017-06-07 04:18 pm (UTC)
kalloway: (GS MSV Strike Rouge)
From: [personal profile] kalloway
My educated guess on Veia is that he's juuuust~ old enough to have had Natural parents who succumbed to Type S2. He could say he'd bounced around in orphanages or something until he was of-age in the PLANTs? But you could blame Le Creuset, of course~ *grins*

Well, if we're going with some of the more amazing canon-AU options~~ *grins*

Date: 2017-06-07 04:28 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Black King)
From: [personal profile] taichara
I mean, even if he has a conveniently timed potential cover, he still had to get -- somehow -- from Mendel to the PLANTs. At least Le Creuset we see in something vaguely resembling normal circumstances when he was a youngster, iirc?

*innocent*

Date: 2017-06-07 04:59 pm (UTC)
kalloway: (Destiny Impulse)
From: [personal profile] kalloway
Type S2 Influenza and Mendel Colony are explained in Gundam SEED. Specific dates, if not mentioned in the anime, were mentioned in the timelines published on the old GundamOfficial website.

The character we're discussing, Veia, is from side-story material. He's appeared in at least one of the games as well (possibly more - I don't own all of the CE/CE-adjacent video games yet).

Date: 2017-06-07 04:54 pm (UTC)
kalloway: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kalloway
Well, Mendel was abandoned what, CE68? We know Coordinators were working there, too, and that the PLANTs are good about taking in any sort of Coordinator refugees. Maybe he just slipped into a different line. *grins*

Date: 2017-06-07 04:55 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Azul - hi!)
From: [personal profile] taichara
True enough, that. And then Le Creuset may well have intervened some time after Veia's arrival, because I still have suspicions.

Date: 2017-06-07 02:55 pm (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (gw relena)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
Regarding Lacus and Relena, these are kids, teenagers, not adults. Relena's biggest fans, Heero, Zechs, and Dorothy, are also kids. I think that should matter, because biologically teenagers are not fully cooked yet, so knowing that, the whole thing becomes more strange, and I wonder if other Gundam Wing narratives address that. If so, I'd like to read/watch them. In rewatching GW as an adult, I find it strange that fully grown adults are putting so many of their eggs in the baskets of teenagers, seemingly moreso than trying to manipulate them and use them as figureheads.

Well, except Relena, to a point. She appeared perfect on the surface, and her ideals are nice, but her leadership tends to be where she's weak, and I think that's why Treize decided to step in for her at Romefeller and why the Sanc Kingdom fell. She isn't a competent leader, but can you blame her? She was never given the chance to learn how to be. She was thrown right in, just like the Gundam pilots were thrown right in to being soldiers. Relena is influential and a good public speaker, no doubt, so those are things. It was a wise choice for her to step out of a ruling position and into diplomacy at the end of the show, which she has a little more competency in, but still. I must say it thousands of times, "she's just a kid! What the fuck is wrong with you people?!"

Lacus, eh. Lacus is OK, but not nearly as good as Relena, in my opinion. Pop Star becomes major political figure kinda burns my ass in a bad way, but it could just be my country's current reality TV buffoon playing president influencing that point of view.

I know. I know they're the age that they are largely because of the target audience, and hey, there were times in history where kids that young were soldiers and country leaders, but goddammit. I just see it as something that's doomed to be a massive clusterfuck, and I feel like what I've seen of both canons supports that.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:03 pm (UTC)
taichara: (apple)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Nah, I disagree on basically all points.

Relena starts off an obsessive and self-absorbed character at best -- the scene in the Antarctic where she's shrieking at Heero to kill Zechs "for the honour of the Peacecrafts" (which relation she's only just learned about!) is a standout example -- and is then conveniently shuffled offscreen for a dozen episodes-plus so the writers can hope the audience has forgotten instances like the above and position her as a compltely rewritten character and an unwarranted Messiah figure. A Messiah figure the entire cast, including all governmental heads, accept like sheep sight-unseen because oh look a bunny!

Relena never does a damn thing to deserve those accolades. She's good at insisting on leaving soldiers to die on her borders, though.

(at least we're bluntly given his amnesia as the reason for Trowa's smaller-scale character rewrite. *snrk*)

But then I spent nearly a year and many many thousands of words putting a Where I Watch of the series on my DW, aside from the above very quick summary I have nothing to say about Relena Darlian other than that I have nothing good to say about her.

Lacus? She's just plain diabolical. Lol. No time for her either.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:19 pm (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (gw treize)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
lol, you should ask [personal profile] stavekoff how he feels about the scene in Antarctica. You're not wrong. It's a groaner.

Who would you have placed in Relena's position instead? Could anyone in the GW continuity fill that role, regardless of whether they showed up in the anime series? Why do you think Zechs insisted upon her?

Yeah, I feel you on Lacus. I prefer Cagalli, and maybe even Fllay.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:26 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Cyrene Wind)
From: [personal profile] taichara
There should have been no one in that position, obviously, because there was no position to fill in the first place. No position, just a phantom.

Resurrect Sanc? It was a pocket kingdom that was razed to the ground. The Alliance built a military emplacement in its hollow belly. Even under Relena's tenure it's a hollow speck, a shell of a city that's barely populated. (good thing too, because Relena shows no regard for the safety of the populace either when the bombardment comes.) There was nothing left, a lesson the Alliance and Romefeller dished out as a warning to others who tried the same -- and lo, it worked. Sanc became a byline for what happens to those who step out of line.

Zechs "insisted" on her because he is a broken man who was a broken boy hell-bent on trying to bring back to life what he lost, regardless of sanity, common sense, or suitability of the bundle of batshit that is his biological sister. The only thing he got right was the self-awareness that he himself was utterly unsuited to the purpose, even if his excuses at the time are insane.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:41 pm (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (gw heero and relena)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
good thing too, because Relena shows no regard for the safety of the populace either when the bombardment comes.

That brings me back to my previous point about her age mattering. She's fifteen, not fully cooked. Kids her age are stunted mentally when it comes to sound and rational judgment and long term consequences (Zechs and Noin fall under this, too, not just Relena and the Gundam pilots). I don't think she intended to disregard anyone's safety personally. I think she just could not fathom the obvious alternative, that even Heero and Noin, and especially Pagan were painfully aware of. I'm surprised Heero didn't have one of his "I'm going to kill you" moments during the Sanc Kingdom bit, come to think of it.

Although, I think you are also correct, because I doubt deep biological complexities about the teenage human brain were taken into consideration when this show was made. Isn't that the beauty of stories, though? Who you are and what you care about is part of what makes them.

Date: 2017-06-07 03:51 pm (UTC)
taichara: (Aurora Princess)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Yes, and that comes back to excuses and a deranged belief in Messiah-hood on the part of the entire cast which is utterly unwarranted and not even something the audience sees develop on-screen. (probably because it comes out of nowhere.)

I generally blame Noin. She clearly had a hand in brainwashing Relena into being Zechs' fractured interpretation of what Sanc was, and she has experience in breaking and remolding her subjects as one of the OZ instructors.

But nah, it doesn't take much being "cooked" to grasp simple concepts like "these people right here are going to die". But then the one personality trait Relena does retain across the episode gap is her obstinate belief that only her interests count, so props to the writers there I guess.

Heero doesn't have one of his moments in Sanc because he was effectively kidnapped there without his consent, after being brainjacked by Zero and fried into a virtual fugue state, and then thrown into Relena's arms more or less by Quatre.

(just love the scene where he's -- rather slowly, for Heero, he looks unsteady still -- making his way down the shuttle staircase and Relena drapes herself over the end of both rails and just smiles like she finally has him trapped. because she does. thanks, Quatre.)

Quatre, who was himself in the middle of a psychotic break and got the crazed idea that this would somehow be "helping" -- which was just as much his attempt to stem his own raging guilt over Trowa and attempted colony annihilations as anything to actually benefit Heero. Heero's off to a bad foot and not all there on arrival and I doubt it improved that much right off the bat. Conveniently, it also made him a good target for the Noin-Relena tagteam.

(came with a side-order of what was basically mental/emotional invasion of Heero's privacy, also, which is also creepy as hell, but oh well. at least Quatre has a lid on it by the time he's Instructor W, although that comes with it's own sketchiness.)

Date: 2017-06-07 07:03 pm (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (gw 1x2 solace)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
I had to step back a bit to digest this, because it is sound reasoning and critique, and you have more knowledge of other continuities than I do (and my memory for details is shitty shit, hence why I rewatch and reread my favorite things as much as I do). I just often find myself awkwardly skirting around some of the obvious flaws in Relena's character.

It comes partially from that "she's just a kid" place, but it comes more so from the fandom, or how the fandom was WAY back in the day. I am was a pretty enamored Heero/Duo shipper back in the day, and I got so fucking tired of fanfics, fanart, and other 1x2 shippers talking about Relena like "she sucks because she rides around in a pink limousine and cock blocks my OTP!!" To this day I struggle not to automatically hop to her defense, because rabid shippers are goddamn stupid, but you already knew that.

Date: 2017-06-08 01:42 am (UTC)
taichara: (Duo and Naina)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Other continuities don't actually factor into the points I've been making in this thread (brief sideways snark about Quatre's later identity notwithstanding); all of this I've drawn from the original animation.

There's a loooot more words dedicated to this sort of prodding at the series in the WIW buried in my DW memories, I think I averaged 2k per episode or something. I don't hold back on snark (for any character), though.

The thing is "she's just a kid" just doesn't fly in any Gundam series because that's not the point of Gundam. (though, being sheltered as she is, Relena comes closer than many -- which is a problem.) These aren't "kids", physical age notwithstanding. The sheltering of teenagers is a modern Western-based construct; similarly, the entire Gundam franchise started as, and continues to be, commentary on Japan during WWII. Looking under the hood shows where a lot of the Gundam themes/tropes come from -- though granted the strongest recent series for this is tekketsu, it's even right there in the title.

I've been in the Wing fandom since the Wing fandom existed, I know what reactions to Relena were like then -- and to many other characters as well, depending on what ship people sailed. But auto-defending Relena, who is quite frankly not a well-written character (that massive, convenient gap in episode appearances) in the narrative, never even minding her in-narrative problems, isn't really helpful either. And is a maddening habit of the current Wing fandom, where one can say no wrong against the Awesome Girl Character.

Date: 2017-06-08 02:01 am (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
where one can say no wrong against the Awesome Girl Character.

Fucking purity culture. As long as your reason isn't "she cockblocked my OTP," then who cares?

Date: 2017-06-08 02:07 am (UTC)
taichara: (apple)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Oh no, this particular trend existed looooong before the uptick in "purity fandom". It was well underway before the turn of the decade, even, because the raging Relena fans are (weirdly) some of the most vocal detractors of the Glory-FT continuity that I've encountered.

(which is hilarious, given how FT ends, but oh well.)

I've been accused more than once over the years of loathing Relena (true!) because I'm a "stupid slasher" (false; I have no ships for Wing, actually, except arguably Sandrock/Quatre and that's one-sided in its way) over the years and it never stops being as hilarious as it is maddening, because of course the only reason to dislike a character involves something like that. Of course. *snort*

Date: 2017-06-08 02:19 am (UTC)
facetiousfutz: (su lapis)
From: [personal profile] facetiousfutz
As you saw earlier, it's even slightly kneejerky with me to this day, despite the fact that I KNOW it's bullshit. Old habits die hard, but at least logic wasn't far behind.

because of course the only reason to dislike a character involves something like that. Of course. *snort*

Ha! That's the tunnel vision of rabid shippers for you. Ship wars, gotta love 'em! Especially when you have no investment in it. You're just there to watch, or be falsely accused in your case.
Edited Date: 2017-06-08 02:20 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-06-08 03:49 am (UTC)
taichara: (Aurora Princess)
From: [personal profile] taichara
Of course, that I intensely dislike the idea of Relena anywhere near Heero for "goddamn that's creepy and manipulative" reasons (and FT both merrily ignores my protests, lol, and backs up my reasoning at the same time) just make life more complicated.

Because I can't just be against it for itself, of course not *snrrrk*

Date: 2017-06-07 05:37 pm (UTC)
kalloway: Risen King Chrom (FE:A Chrom)
From: [personal profile] kalloway
Also it's been suggested to me that Waltfeld is also a clone

reading backwards a bit, but... that literally makes no sense. Captain Coffee is one of the few characters in the show who survives a horrific incident and is shown to be very badly injured as a result of that.

Date: 2017-06-09 11:03 am (UTC)
samuraiter: (Default)
From: [personal profile] samuraiter
*reads the comment threads above*

Yeah, I don't really have anything to add here that hasn't already been said. A lot of the plot holes in main Seed continuity get patched up by supplementary material (... which tends to be better than the main story, but that's my opinion; I'm really biased when it comes to Seed).

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